Liverpool and Man Utd fans: officially both as bad as each other
You can buy this T-shirt from Republik of Mancunia’s online shop, along with other merchandise that cheerily makes reference to Liverpool fans’ (admittedly shameful) involvement in the Heysel tragedy. “Withouth Killing Anyone” underpants, anyone?
This crass garment sum ups everything that is wrong about the rivalry between Man Utd and Liverpool: the nasty tribalism, the one-eyed hypocrisy, the anger, the hatred, the inability to let the past go and move forward. And that goes for both sets of fans: honestly, they’re both as bad as each other. It’s an unhealthy rivalry, fuelled by bitterness and hatred.
Take Scott the Red, the guy who runs Republik of Mancunia (RoM). Today, I have been having a fairly civilised email conversation with Scott about the above T-shirt, and how I think it’s rather rich for his site to sell such a shirt, while on the other hand he slags off Liverpool fans for chanting about the Munich air disaster (something I posted about yesterday, and which Scott alerted me to in the first place).
Scott doesn’t see anything wrong with upbraiding Liverpool -Â the club and its fans – for failing to apologise for their part in the Heysel Stadium disaster (as Scott rightly says, the tragedy belongs to Juventus, if anyone), whereas I think he’s being just as bad as the Scousers who chant about Munich.
I can’t stop Liverpool or Man Utd fans chanting about Hillsborough, Munich and Heysel. All three incidents are woven into the fabric of the two clubs’ rivalry, and nothing I say can change that.
But it’s all very depressing. I’d like to think any reasonable fan would want to distance him/herself from such chants. Let it go! That’s what I said to Scott, but I guess even I can’t understand the true depth of feeling between the two sets of fans.
I realise that I risk coming across as humourless, which is not something I want: there is a rich seam of pitch-black humour that benefits British football, and you could argue that the “Without Killing Anyone” chant, sung for years at Old Trafford (so Scott informs me), comes under that category. I don’t find it funny, but I’m sure plenty of United supporters enjoy singing it.
I dunno though… it always feels with United and Liverpool like there is genuine malice and intention to hurt feelings. Football fans have thicker skins than most, but that doesn’t mean it’s OK to trade on the deaths of innocent people.
Maybe I’m too sensitive to be a “real” football fan. Maybe I don’t know enough about Liverpool and Man Utd to comment. Maybe I should just leave both sets of fans to it…
EDITED Poor Scott @ RoM wasn’t happy that I didn’t fully present his side of the argument, so here’s a transcript of an email conversation we had. I’ll let you be the judge…
Scott,
A Liverpool fan has brought it to my attention that your shop is selling “Without killing anyone” T-shirts – I appreciate this is not quite as bad as Munich chants, but it’s a bit rich to moan about Spirit of Shankly, no?
Ollie
No it’s not a bit rich.
After Heysel, the Liverpool chairman, John Smith, claimed it was Chelsea fans who had caused the problems which lead to the 39 deaths, not the Liverpool fans. This was an attitude the club adopted until 2005 when they finally said sorry. The Juve fans turned their backs, whistled, and stuck their fingers up at the Liverpool fans. They had been waiting 20 years for Liverpool to accept the blame (just like Liverpool fans have been waiting 20 years for South Yorkshire Police) for the deaths of the Juve fans.
So when we sing about Heysel, we’re obviously not mocking the Juve fans who died. We’re not taking the piss out of them or laughing at them or using the hurt Liverpool fans feel about a loss of their own to upset them, we’re simply confronting them with the truth, a truth they denied for 20 years and still largely like to distance themselves from.
I accept all of that – but you don’t address the T-shirt I mentioned. People in glass houses and other clichés…
Do you not accept that United and Liverpool fans are both as bad as each other, and that while chanting about Munich is in the worst taste, selling a T-shirt that proudly claims “Without killing anyone” is also in very bad taste?
Not trying to pick a fight here, just interested to hear your take.
What do I mean I don’t address the t-shirt? The t-shirt is bearing the words of the song we sing about Heysel. Some might say singing about Heysel is in bad taste, but I personally don’t have a problem with it. I’m sure Juve wouldn’t have a problem with it either, as they would likely welcome any recognition given to the fact Liverpool fans were behind the deaths of Juve fans. Hillsborough happened four years later and Juve fans celebrated it, they claimed God existed because of it, so angry and upset were they that Liverpool fans had done this and failed to acknowledge it… just like the South Yorkshire police failed to acknowledge their wrong-doings at Hillsborough. So, to sing about Hillsborough and Munich is sick, because you are making fun of innocent people who died. Nobody is being made fun of when we talk about Heysel, we’re simply making Liverpool face what their fans did, after they spent 20 years denying it.
I would agree that Liverpool and United fans are as bad as each other. Go on YouTube and google the words to the Munich and Hillsborough songs. I don’t post up every link to every fan that sings about Munich because you can dismiss it as a mindless idiot.
The point is, this wasn’t just some mindless idiot at a pub. This was a mindless idiot at an SOS party with SOS members. The SOS have been used as the voice of Liverpool fans, a Liverpool FC representative, in all of the papers this week in relation to the Yanks. And now the voice of Liverpool does nothing to stop the Munich song.
so let me get this clear:
you think it’s OK to sing about Heysel and sell tasteless merchandise alluding to that tragedy.
but you think it’s NOT OK for Liverpool fans to sing about the Munich tragedy.
??
Don’t you see how that might look to neutral fans?!
Get it clear:
I think it’s alright to remind Liverpool of the deaths they caused and make their wrong-doings acknowledged, the same way they want the wrong-doings of the South Yorkshire police acknowledged, given that Liverpool FC passed the buck on Heysel for 20 years (and it was before their public apology that the chant started – back when Liverpool FC had never acknowledged that they had been in the wrong).
Don’t forget Liverpool fans now refer to themselves as ‘murderers’. (http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/09/the-final-word.html#comments) When United fans start calling themselves Munichs, you can compare the two. As it is, the differences between the two incidents and the feelings of the fans towards them are vast, so there’s no way we would EVER make light of Munich, because it is our tragedy. Heysel isn’t Liverpool’s, it’s Juve’s.
It’s not alright for Liverpool fans to sing about Munich and it is not alright for United fans to sing about Hillsborough. Those songs are mocking the dead, taunting fans over their hurt and loss.
We’re not mocking the dead with Heysel, we’re confronting Liverpool with their rotten past, after they, and this country, worked so hard at sweeping it under the carpet. Had Liverpool FC acknowledged what they’d done from the start there would be no need for us to draw attention over the deaths they caused. It is entirely incomparable with the sick Munich and Hillsborough songs.
Scott, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and have happily promoted your site on Pies, but it’s fairly clear that you’re:
a) a one-eyed hypocrite (like the majority of self-anointed “real” football fans)
b) deluded: just how is dragging up Heysel at every given opportunity “alright’? Your argument is bollocks, frankly, and that’s regardless of who’s to blame more for past tragedies (it’s not a competition). Liverpool FC and the fans have apologised for Heysel, so how about you let it go – be the bigger man.
Personally, I find it extremely crass that you’d sell T-shirts bearing the message “Without Killing Anyone”, just as I would if a Liverpool site sold “We Never Crashed” T-shirts. But that’s just me – I’m too sensitive to be a “proper” footy fan, clearly.
I don’t drag up Heysel at every given opportunity. Without killing anyone is a chant sung at OT, has been for years (during the period when they failed to acknowledge they were behind the deaths) and it is still sung today, particularly since winning our third European Cup. It is a song for the celebration of what we’ve achieved more than anything to do with Liverpool.
Again, I find it sick that people compare mocking the deaths of innocent people, like your example does, to making Liverpool fans stand up and be counted for what they did wrong after denying it for 20 years. The fact that they call THEMSELVES murderers these days is testament to that. Which fans do you think get tickets for the away Merseyside derby? The glory hunting fair weather fans or the loyal season ticket holders who watch their team home and away? They can take the piss out of Heysel by calling themselves murderers if they want to, just as we can point the blame in their direction. It’s Juve’s tragedy and I’m fairly sure they’d like the blame to be pointed in the right direction too, after they were denied that for so long.
Regardless, it’s nothing to do with being a ‘proper’ fan or not. People CAN have a difference of opinion without getting bitchy and childish. Self-anointed “real” football fans? Christ, get a grip will you. I give my opinion on United but I am not the voice of United fans, as SoS claim to be for Liverpool.
But Liverpool apologised for Heysel (yes, I know it was a bit late) – let it go! It does you no favours to occupy the low ground, when you’re clearly an intelligent and passionate fan. Because it just makes normal, reasonable people think: they’re both as bad as each other. When it’s clear you think you’re better than Liverpool.
I have a grip, believe me. I know you might find it difficult to believe that I’m not getting hysterical about this (the default position for Utd and Pool fans), but that’s not the way I roll: I love football, passionately, but I’d like to think I can be reasonable too. So Without Killing Anyone has been sung for years, eh? How is that an excuse for capitalising on it!? Answer: it’s not. Just because it’s an old chant, doesn’t make it alright. That argument is piss weak.
I know that black humour is an important part of British football, but this goes beyond that. Just my opinion though. I respect yours.
I’m not asking for favours. I’m simply selling a shirt (at no profit) for a chant which is sung in our ground and has been for years which celebrates how many European Cups we’ve won. If people want to buy it and I have no moral disagreement with it (like I do Hillsborough songs) then it goes in the shop.
And essentially, it is up to me what I think and believe and do. I don’t see anything wrong with confronting Liverpool fans with what they did and denied for 20 years. You do and that’s fine. But is the talk of ‘proper’ and ‘real’ football fans anything other than petty? When football discussions become personal that’s where I draw the line.
We agree to disagree. End of story. Ta ra now.
I’ll walk away too. No hard feelings, certainly.
You’ll walk away….. then publicly slag me off on your website?
Tosser.
Jesus, why the feck do you lot have to be so fecking touchy!? (By “you lot”, I mean Utd AND Liverpool fans, just in case – heaven forbid! – you thought I was being biased)
How did I slag you off?? Do please quote me…
I thought I was pretty reasonable.
You said you were going to walk away and leave it at that. Had you presented my side of the argument, which I went to great lengths to explain to you, then that would be fair enough. It’s not just that Liverpool didn’t acknowledge Heysel, they blamed the bloody thing on someone else, and that chant is confronting them with what they denied doing for 20 years! What a waste of my afternoon explaining that to you.
Don’t send me any of your links in the future. Cheers.
You’re officially a cunt. Get a fucking life, cunt.
Followed swiftly by…
Jesus, you self-righteous fans do my fucking nut in – maybe if it wasn’t for people like you, I could enjoy football.
Finally, from Scott:
Ha ha. The words ‘dummy’ and ‘pram’ come to mind.
There’s a few hours of my life I won’t get back, christ.
All good fooling, eh! I’ll continue to link to RoM if there’s good stuff on there, and won’t lose too much sleep if Scott never links to Pies again. But as I said earlier, I wish some football fans weren’t so bloody defensive/self-righteous.
Piers Morgan On Twitter, The 'Highlights' – The FCF
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Sexual Adventures Of Demarcus La Shonda – Fitba Thatba
A Year In Non-League Football Photos – Pitch Invasion
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I agree but Scott is correct in the sense that it wasnt Juventus’ fault therefore their tragedy. Liverpool as a club only accepted some part of fault the other year as shown in the photo above. Scott doesn’t condone anything about Hillsborough does he? Maybe that’s because that’s Liverpool’s tragedy so Utd don’t aim it at them as much!!! (Although a sick minority obviously do)
What about the chants on Youtube from the “Spirit of Shankly” Fan organisation chanting about Munich this May, after the season!! It seems that if it’s not Man Utd it will go un-noticed!!
aj08, Scott certainly taught me more about the way both clubs view the three tragedies, so I thank him for that. Still think it’s wrong to joke about any of them though.
I would suggest that chanting that you haven’t killed anyone is nothing like chanting about being glad that people died. Maybe you should have kept out of it if you can’t tell the difference?
I couldn’t agree more. Its bad enough to hear these things chanted at football grounds, but to make money by peddling this kind of hateful malicious tripe is beyond comprehension. There is no moral high ground on this, no childish ‘they started it’ explanations that can mask it. Its shameful and they do themselves and their great club a disservice by dragging their proud name through the mud. Its fine to have banter between fans, and to take the p**s is one thing, but does anyone really think that making reference to tragedies where people lost their lives in order to score cheap juvenile ‘my team is better than your team’ points is acceptable?
I couldn’t agree more… and I am a Liverpool fan.
Let me make it very clear where I, a Red for 46 years, stand: The ‘Without Killing Anyone’ shirt is despicable. The Munich disaster chants are despicable. Hillsborough chants are despicable….
ANY chants which seek to make gain from the loss of people’s lives will only ever be made by low-lives who have no respect for humanity and no sense of priority for things that matter in life. Football is not more important than life and death (Shanks was JOKING people!!!)
I join in the banter against Mancs and Bluenoses, of course I do. It’s part of the rich traditions of football support in this country and is just harmless fun. But I will say this quite firmly: If ever I am tempted to make a comment in ‘fun’ about a tragedy that has lost another fan his or her life, I will walk away from all football for the last time and not look back.
It won’t happen of course but hey, why don’t we all speak out against this type of rubbish and stand up for football being the fun, national game that we all love and enjoy, whatever team we support.
Cheers,
Red
You’re right in that it isn’t funny to make chant about innocent peoples death. But I think what you’re forgetting is that chants and jokes regarding the Munich Air disaster are aimed at just those innocent people that you speak of. Whereas Uniteds chants are aimed at the murdering scousers who were not innocent when they killed the Juventus fans
It’s pretty sick from either side. There is another little publicised event that takes place at Old Trafford, when the United fans taunt the visiting Liverpool fans about Hillsborough by stamping their feet in unison pretty much across the entire stadium.
Get off those high horse please
Every club has its share of idiots so get over it.
We’ve won it 3 times
We’ve won it 3 tiiiiimes
Without killing anyone
We’ve won it 3 times
Tom, as a matchgoing fan of many years, both home and away, Ive never ever come accross a stamping of the feet etc as you describe.
Im not sure where you hav puleld hat fabricated story from, infact I cant even see any relevance in the activity to the disaster you mention.
Thats not to dismiss the chanting that does take place from both sides. Study Youtube and you’ll find footgae of Liverpool fans throwing an inflatable plane round the Old Trafford concourse before this years United v liverpool game, the same fans who 2 weeks later wanted respect for their own tragedy. For years up until 1989, a Munich Union Flag took pride and place on The Kop for most Liverpool games, it was quickly taken down after Hllsborough.But Utd fan aren Angels either, with fans mocking Hillsborough and other deaths, many of which arnt even football related.
Liverpool fans don’t sing about UTD when they play other teams. UTD fans do… in fact the first song of this season at Old Trafford was about not killing anyone.
Why are Man U fans so obsessed with Livepool?
I’ve been to Old Trafford and the sound of 76k people chanting murderers is something else to a few idiots chanting about munich
As a United fan I don’t agree with the ‘Without Killing anyone’ chants et al, but surely you can see the difference between the shameful acts at Hysel and the terrible accident of Munich?
I think the thing that has annoyed me the most about the SOS incident, isn’t so much the chanting of Munich, we’ve all heard it before, and we all know we have an idiot element to our fan bases. But the fact this was at an event hosted by a supporters group that represents a lot of people, so much so that I believe I’m right in saying two high profile current Liverpool players attended during the evening? And the statement issues by SOS was simply pathetic, as has been the media coverage, that frankly if a similar act happened at a United based event, it would have been dragged all through the rags.
I personally dont think its right, it doesnt matter who is to blame, but as for Scott selling these T-Shirts, i wouldnt worry about him making a profit from loss / death, who in there right mind would buy that sh*te?
“Liverpool and Man Utd fans: officially both as bad as each other” – as a Liverpool fan I would ask you not to tarnish us all with the same brush (and most Man U fans as well for that matter).
Also, on a technical matter, the t-shirt is wrong anyway as Liverpool didn’t actually win the cup after Heysal and all of our FIVE cups came in different years. So not only is the slogan produced by an offensive moron, it is also a moron who needs to get his/her facts straight.
Chants about Heysel, Hillsborough, and Munich are well out of order.
What I have never understood is this “3 times without killing anyone” Liverpool lost the final at Heysel. Whenever they won finals, no one was killed. The song makes no sense anyway.
Remember, United fans think singing a song about Arsene Wenger being a paedophile is funny, so they’re no barometer of taste.
The chants at a Spirit of Shankly event were not planned. They were the actions of a drunken fool who was then encouraged by the low brow section of the audience. It has been denounced by the leadership of the Spirit of Shankly. They have since commented that they regretted not dragging him off stage.
everywhere manu went during the 2007/08 season there was trouble. blacken clothed coked up probably thug mongs charging around old twatfford looking for retribution over getting their heads kicked in by the police in italy somewhere.
Hysel some lickle facts…ten days early liverpool went to turin to play juve and got battered, well the fans did – some kinda supercup carry on that lpool won. much reported knife attacks that stll happen to this day and am sure mancs got some of too.
So at the euro final liverpool fans did what all fans did BACK THEN IN THE 80′s and got violent. however the italian’s tried to run and a wall collasped – because ‘the stadium wasn’t fit’. REf any arsenal fan who had been to the same ground some months earlier and described the stadium as crumbling down. I’m not saying anything about supporting violence but everyone was at it BACK IN THE 80′s not 2007 however mancs did get tonked in the park by some very nice small club supporting everton fans – couple of yrs ago.
some facts about pre-written issues of pther folk. Liverpool FC won everything in the 80′s so they were going to be at the forefront of most things.
Mancs dressed in black 2007 much the same.
As for the Bradford fire – probably some scouser who thru his ciggy away and the very same who fiddle with the breaks of that plane in munich.
I think it’s tasteless no matter who is
chanting or singing to whom. I despise
Man U and I love Liverpool but I don’t
find it at all amusing when Liverpool
fans go there or vice versa.
But sadly it’s not just soccer that has this.
I lived in Louisiana during hurricanes
Katrina and Rita and when LSU played
Georgia in the SEC title game, Georgia
fans had signs and songs making fun
of what happened to the people of
Louisiana who were devastated by the
natural disasters.
Now SEC football fans aren’t known for
their class, but this behavior was
nauseating.
I’m only saying this because it points out
how classless sports in general have
become–from players’ antics on the
pitch to the way the fans behave in the
stands.
It’s probably part of why LSU made such
an effort to welcome and raise money
for Virginia Tech when they came to play
after the horrid massacre on their
campus.
Munich, Hillsborough and Heysel chants are all equally despicable. Our support (LFC) is not blameless as recently evidenced by the Youtube clip.
Scott’s hypocrisy is evident also in that, as a fanbase, Utd fans refuse to accept that in the case of Paul Nixon the Palace fan in 1995, they were also directly responsible for loss of life at a match.
For his memory alone, the ‘without killing anyone’ motto should be well and truly dropped.
I have tried to post this on Scott’s site however am heavily censored.
There is no moral high ground to be taken by either set of fans, Utd should remember this also.
@ KB
Agree 100%. Everyone’s in a glass house on this one.
So Scott justifies this pathetic chant and his attempts to profit from it via his website on the grounds that Liverpool didn’t apologise until 2005.
Now, even if that is true – which factually it isn’t, actually – it still doesn’t stack up. United only won their third trophy in 2008 in Moscow. So the chant postdates the apology that Scott references.
Pathetic, hateful bile.
was it really necessary to call him a cunt? kudos for publishing the whole conversation though, such transparency is rare.
sometimes, seeing the supposed ‘banter’ between football fans is like watching monkeys throw shit at each other. scott’s right in that the natures of the heysel and hillsborough tragedies in terms of what they mean to liverpool fans are very different, but using such a tragic event to fuel a hatred which ultimately comes down to some guys kicking a ball around is so puerile it beggars belief. admittedly it came late, but liverpool have apologised now; does this not make the notion of them ‘confronting’ their past a bit redundant? more than anything else it’s spiteful to rub this in the faces of liverpool fans and coming from such a prominent fan figure, it sets a very poor example for those looking for the slightest excuse to succomb to even lower levels of tasteless goading. it’s like taking the piss out of the kid in school whose brother’s been done for murder, and using the feelings of the victim’s family as an excuse. it’s also highly patronising of scott to feel he can speak on behalf of juve fans as to this matter, and even if they did condone it, how would that justify it? it would only confirm that they shared in the vulgarity common to so many football fans.
you see it everywhere, with every group of fans – it falls under the same category as the endemic racism and homophobia. it’s not even just sport, it’s every rivalry and people using that rivalry as a pretext to act like a mob of cavemen. it’s ugly and it needs someone in scott’s position to draw a line; while the boundaries are so blurred as the necessity of such a lengthy explanation proves, we will continue to move in circles. call me a pessimist, but in all honesty, i don’t see this kind of thing ever stopping; it’s the ugly side of human nature and it’s thoroughly depressing.
i love football, but i begin to lose my faith when i see the extremes it can go to. people losing their reason and better judgement for the sake of sport is a sad advertisement for the fickle, irrational side of human nature. sometimes a group of football fans is only a step away from becoming a lynch mob. ‘civilisation’ indeed.
I love the game, I love the amazing support that we give our respective teams during a match. I love the togetherness that you have with your fellow supporters. I love the banter, I love the rush when my team scores, I love the joy when we win. I even love the down of loosing…cause it all comes back to me loving my team.
I hate the fact that we have idiots that should NEVER been allowed into games, that should be banned from fan events. Like that idiot who did sing about the Munich disaster. He is making a mockery of what Shanks built.
I will not speak about the Mancs, because I do not care about them. As a Liverpool supporter for close to 40 years I only focus on my own team.
This is simply because I as a Liverpool supporter cannot speak out against other set of supporters without something kicking off.
So I thank you for taking up this issue as a “outsider”. I think the only way to get rid of these songs is for the bad elements to be banned and for people like you who have no allegiance to either club to speak up.
As for the shirt, is it just as pathetic as the chants regarding Munich disaster and Hillsborough.
Liverpool Football Club is in no way culpable for what happened at Heysel. The main culprits were tried and served jail sentences. Why is this even remotely similar to Hillsborough where no-one has been brought to account. I know this is a little tricky for a thick manc to understand but try hard to get you tiny brain around it.
Firstly, thanks for writing the article and for posting Scotts comments. It has given me something of an insight into his bizarre logic.
Scott brings up the point that Liverpool fans once chanted 2-0 to the Murderers as a direct response to being called Murderers by Everton fans but he fails to mention that Utd fans do something similar when they chant “Where’s your famous Munich song” at Liverpool fans.
Surely both of these chants are equally as bad (regardless of the intended irony) as people are using the dead to score points of each other.
The hypocrisy would be laughable if the subject matter wasn’t so sickening.
One thing that worries me is the widespread belief among Utd fans, and indeed some Utd players after the “Won It Three Times” chant was sung on the pitch in Moscow, that using the dead to score points of rival fans is perfectly acceptable.
Has the “Three Times” chant become so rampant at Old Trafford that the actual content, irrespective of how it is intended to come across, has lost all meaning?
Do people really need reminding that the actual content of the song is about the deaths of fans at a footy match?
More to the point, do people really need reminding that this is truly unacceptable?
If its a Juve tradegy then why the f*ck are Utd singing it? Whats it to do with them, when the English clubs were band they won f*ck all!
I have to say it’s a bit bizarre when a football writer not only appears to stalk a fellow blogger but goes on to publicly slate his opinion publicly – for clicks (or should that be kicks?)
Anyway, some seriously weird psychology from the author there. He tries to make out it’s Scott taking the moral high ground, i.e. being a hypocrite, and even takes care to make the title sound as if he’s blaming both sides equally, then has the audacity to claim Liverpool apologized so United supporters should ‘let it go.’
For a start, Liverpool sickeningly did just about everything they could to ever avoid taking any responsibility for Heysel – including blaming Chelsea. Respect for the dead? I don’t bloody think so! It’s not even respect for other clubs/fans and yet that’s what they demand for themselves. When it comes to their own tragedies, they have the nerve to expect the world to come to a standstill in acknowledgement of their grief. And the author has the front to level hypocrite accusations in the opposite direction? There really is nothing like a Liverpool supporter eh? Lol.
Trust me, I’m far from a United fan but even I can see that chanting in derision of those that died in Munich and confronting Liverpool with a truth they’ve never wanted to accept, are incomparable. Clearly the author can’t see that though from his viewpoint at the very top of that ‘moral high ground’ he tries so hard not to let us know he takes.
Always a giveaway when someone resorts to throwing digs about being a ‘real’ supporter around, not to mention insults, when the lost cause can’t be fought realistically.
Unbelievable, if no one cant see the difference in the Liverpool and Utd chants then they are just being pathetically defensive and showing a typical ABU attitude..
Some facts..
Munich – tragedy….a true accident where innocents lost their lives, not due to violence, bad policing or pissed up fans and overcrowding, they lost their lives to a tragic accident.
Heysel – 39 Italians murdered by Liverpool fans….What Scott posted is correct about their denial up until 2005…it is Juve’s loss and Liverpool should always be reminded how they took those innocent lives away….the same way that..
…Hillsboro’ – Tragedy…..where is the justice for the innocents that died that horrid day? We are constantly reminded of that tragic day and the ongoing fight for justice….and quite rightly so….whoever was responsible should be held accountable and reminded for their part in it for the rest of their lives
So how is what Scott’s t-shirts say offensive and who too? is it offensive to the Juve fans?? no!..the murdering Liverpool fans?? i fucking hell hope so!
So, to summarise – Liverpool fans mocking a horrid sporting tragedy (that in a perverse way helped Liverpool to dominate later on) is disgusting and abhorrent. Utd fans, mocking a team who’s murderous act was denied by the club for 20 years, whilst in that period calling for justice over hillsboro’ is quite justified
The cretin at Republic of Mancunia knows FOR A FACT that the Heysel song has reverberations about Hillsborough because it conflates the two together and sets up an atmospherics in which Hillsborough songs can be sung by Mancs because the dead are all fair game. He is the most hypocritical psychopath in the world….he sells merchandise with the Heysel reference on it for Gods sake! I detest all those who sing about Munich, but this cretin from RoM has about as much moral high ground as a skunk who goes around telling everyone else that they stink. Hillsborugh and Heysel songs are the only songs that Mancs sing, they are the You’ll Never Walk Alone of Old Trafford. Republic of Mancunia proves that songs about Heysel and Hillsborough are Manchester United’s ‘YNWA’……sleazy, hypocritical, morbid, and nasty.
Jeneria, Paul Nixon was killed by a Crystal Palace coach……anymore straws you care to clutch at???
I’m a Liverpool fan, and the Munich taunts are totally out of line…it’s a special brand of hypocrisy coming from a club whose history is inextricably linked with two tragedies, the first of which was a direct result of fan hooliganism on the part of Liverpool and other fans who, quite obviously, didn’t show up to watch and support their team like normal patrons would. The “Without Killing Anyone” taunts, as Scott correctly notes, have been in circulation around Old Trafford for many years, and while the rich vein of black humor in English footballing culture is to be appreciated, there is a line. Much has been made of whether the “_ Men Went to Bed With Ashley” chants at Arsenal cross that line or not; regardless of your opinion on that, chants teasing other teams about genuine human tragedies lie firmly on the other side of that moral line and should be excoriated accordingly, just as I condemn Munich chants.
While I’m on the topic, Ollie, I’d like to get your opinion on the topic of Heysel and the discomfort its memory provokes among Liverpool supporters and the general public. The fact that it was a culmination of the “English problem” of hooligans driving away non-violent supporters is not in doubt; nor is the fact that Liverpool supporters, buffeted by the gross incompetence of both UEFA and Brussels police, were directly responsible for the tragedy that ensued. To this day, I can’t wrap my head around why it took so long for Liverpool to acknowledge responsibility, or why UEFA and Brussels police (along with, allegedly, the higher-ups at Juventus after the final) didn’t investigate further and acknowledge their own shortcomings in handing it. Perhaps it’s a topic for another post, but I’d like to hear your opinion.
Can someone please prove in black and white that murder occurred at Heysel or Hillsborough.
No you can’t because it didn’t happen.
The evidence Man Utd fans use would be laughed out of a court of law.
As bad as those tragedies were there was no murder committed.
At the SOS thing it was a few pissed up fans that briefly sang Munich chants and that was it.
You won’t hear it sang at anfield. The only time Man Utd are sang about at Liverpool games is when Liverpool play them.
Go to any Man Utd game and they sing about ‘scousers’.
Go to a pub near the grounds and they are like rabid dogs when you mention Liverpool.
You can see from the RoM webmaster responses how loopy some of them are.
They are obsessed with scousers as much as Hitler was with Jews.
And the Ironic thing is their favourite player – Rooney is a scouser whose (Everton supporting) brother sings Harold Shipman songs on youtube.
And:
“Paul Nixon was killed by a Crystal Palace coach……anymore straws you care to clutch at???”
The similar thing can be said about Heysel.
Paul Nixon was running from man utd fans who had stabbed him he was hit by a coach.
I can’t see the RoM bigot even seeing the irony.
Whether its a United fan killing Bacca fans by running them over, or Liverpool fans killing Juve fans I can see no justification for any mockery.
Some people are too full of hate and can’t simply enjoy the game. Other are full of something else and just want attention.
Captain Hormone:
I’m not sure what I said to bring that on.
I maintain that the actions of both fans
are classless and in poor taste.
Unless you’re a Georgia fan, there wasn’t
really anything contentious in anything I
said.
Perhaps you’re confusing my post with
someone else’s?
As a fan of the beautiful game, I’ve always been shocked and horrified by the behavior of the minority of idiots who chant about and mock the tragedies of Munich, Hillsborough and Heysel. It should always be remembered that football is just a game and pales in comparison to the anguish of those who have lost their loved ones.
Also to the idiot Scott from RoM in regards to the atrocious T-Shirt , your reasoning is pathetic and despicable. An eye for an eye only makes the world blind.
I agree that everyone is in a glasshouse on this one. These songs are all nasty crap. But I was also really disappointed by the way Ollie Irish handled that e-mail exchange. Unfortuantely I think he came off looking a bit agressive quite early on in that exchange and then really undermined everything he said by calling Scott a cunt and telling him to get a fecking life. It did come across as a bit of a tanty. I know Scott called him a tosser, which didn’t really help either, but it not quite the same as calling someone a cunt. Or sending two e-mails in a row – which was amusingly like the behaviour you’d expect from a recently dumped high maintenance ex :)
I would like to thank Scott at RoM for his wonderful insight into the psyche of this ‘breed’ of football fan.
I have sat and read through this article, and then, being a glutton for punishment, read it again. I have carefully evaluated the points raised, and can now deliver my considered verdict.
The article author is quite correct in his assertion that Scott, of RoM, is indeed a c*nt.
Oh, and carefree …. Liverpool fans are not murderers. I believe the Juve fans who died that evening were killed because of a wall that collapsed, in a stadium unfit for the purpose of hosting that game. I will admit that LFC fans had an influence on the rasons why the wall collapsed, but ‘murderers’ is not the correct term for them.
None of what I have stated is meant to gloss over ANY of the tragedies that are mentioned throughout this article and its responses. All 3 were heart-breaking tragedies that could and should have been avoided. Anyone that sings about these are the lowest of the low.
YNWA
JFT96
wow, that’s a lot of discussion you had going on!
I can’t stand liverpool, but anyone who would buy this shirt is a moron. it’s this level of moron-hood that leads to football related violence.
i’d even say anyone who wears this shirt outside their own home deserves to get their ass handed to them.
don’t change, england!
“The only time Man Utd are sang about at Liverpool games is when Liverpool play them.”
And end of season S.O.S do’s
ffs, get a grip and think about it
No question the singing was out of line, but Manchester United fans have a terrible track record at nearly every ground in the country and their fans and players are the last people in the world I would take moral guidance from.
And in any case, referring to the T-shirt above, Liverpool also won three European Cups without killing anyone. Liverpool won their third European Cup 28 years ago.
Scott from RoM clearly likes courting the ‘any publicity is good publicity’ angle. Unfortunately, in real life, I suspect he is a bit of a helpless spanner.
Captain Hormone | June 11, 2009 1:10 AM
“The only time Man Utd are sang about at Liverpool games is when Liverpool play them.”
And end of season S.O.S do’s
ffs, get a grip and think about it”
Let’s rephrase that because of a hand full of idiots (that don’t represent the majority of Liverpool fans).
You won’t hear Munich songs at anfield when Liverpool play (nor any anti man utd songs unless they’re playing them – which won’t include Munich references).
If an idiot attempts to start one up, he’ll soon be told to shut the fu#k up by the rest of the crowd.
In contrast at Man utd, anti Liverpool songs are probably sang more than Man Utd songs at every game.
Even thick Gary Neville and Drug taker Rio sang the Murdering song on the pitch in Moscow.
Fantastic ambassadors for the club there.
Let’s see if we can take this madness out of the context of football for a second shall we?
There are numerous examples of riots and deaths at rock concerts all over the world. Should bands like Iron Maiden or artists like Dave Mathews feel obligated to apologise for the behaviour of their fans? Does anyone expect them too?
If you aren’t completely insane, you will have answered “No”.
Please tell me then, why Liverpool Football CLUB are obligated to apologise for the behaviour of some of their fans?
While we’re at it…
I went to a Dave Mathews Concert last week, at the same venue where a riot had occurred at one of his concerts in the past. I wasn’t at the original concert in question.
Should I expect that fans of other bands should call me a thug and a monster and wear T-shirts taunting me?
LFC have no obligation to apologise for the behaviour of some mindless thugs at Heysel and 25 years later, the vast majority of Liverpool fans bear no responsibility either.
Scott’s argument is feeble and is little more than a desperate attempt to rationalize petty and inappropriate behaviour.
There is no place for anything like this in sport.
Any weight Ollie had to his argument went out the window when he lost the plot in his response. Calling Scott a c***? Really? It’s laughable to me, a spurs fan mind you, that someone would post their own shameful behavior on their own website for all to see while trying to make a point about someone else. A point, it should be noted, that failed to be made in the end. Maybe you should have walked away, Ollie, when it was offered – and kept this mess to yourself. As it stands, Scott makes his point that you’ve promoted and you’re left looking thick.
why cant you all see that the t-shirt cant be compared to that despicable chant sung by those idiots at the S.O.S do? the t-shirt is just a reminder, something to wind liverpool fans up, referring to their atrocious behavior and the stand they took regarding the heysel murders, how they refused to take responsibility etc. its got nothing to do with the victims, while the chant sung by the liverpool fans are about a great man who dedicated most of his life to man utd, creating and rebuilding the spirit and concept of what man utd is all about again. GET IT THROUGH YOUR SKULLS.
Bean – Get it through your skulls?
Nice try, painting man utd fans as the innocent.
The T-shirt sullies the dead from Heysel you moron.
The accidental deaths (no murder was carried out) at Heysel are used to pan the hatred Man utd fans have for all things Liverpool related (unless it doesn’t suit them – like having players from there).
There are also gestures and songs sung about Hillsboro and Heysel around the Old Trafford as well as the insulting dated stereotypical songs that are sung by Man Utd fans.
Man Utd fans have a long list of anti Liverpool insulting songs, sung every week.
A few pissed up Liverpool fans in a bar singing a song that hasn’t been sung at Anfield for over 20 years doesn’t make Liverpool fans as bad and Man utd fans.
I’m with “Scott” on this one…
He’s the one making sens and offering arguments.
u fucking moronic cunt ur argument with scott is so fucking pointless
I don’t know why liverpool and the club from stretford hate each other so much they have so much in common, glory hunters hunters for fans, city and everton are the real cubs from both cities.
All these mancs saying it took 20 years for LFC to say sorry. That was the first time we played them since. Memorial’s were put up well before that and there’s one in anfield.
We hate mancs they hate us. Passion is the name of the game, These songs will never stop. The fans sing them to piss the other set of fans of it my be wrong, but so are alot of things in life.
without killing any 1… hmmmmmmmmmmm
An enraged Manchester United fan killed four people when he drove his minibus into a crowd of Barcelona supporters after his team’s Champions League defeat.
Police said the Red Devils fan was so annoyed when he drove passed the jubilant Barcelona fans that he made a U-turn and ploughed into them.
The police spokeswoman said 10 people were injured and the driver was arrested.
“The driver had passed the crowd then made a U-turn and ran into them,” .
The singing is wrong, full stop, as is the t-shirt.
The apology to Juventus came the first time we played them post Heysel, on the way to the 2005 European Cup win.
It was after that win that “The Kop” started to sing “In Istanbul, we won it five times”. Which was quickly parodied by the United fans into “Without Killing Anyone”.
Since Liverpool fans didn’t even start using that song until 2005/06 there is no way United were singing the parody prior to the Juve apology.
They sing it for fun, not by way of protest.
As for Liverpool fans singing “murderers” at E.F.C. Very few members of the away end these days will have been there at Heysel, and I, and I am sure I speak for other reds, refuse to accept responsibility for what other people did. People like to forget that Liverpool fans did go to jail for their part in the tradegy. So justice was served, however others like to bend history.
Further “Scott” contends that Heysel helped us to a period of dominance? Hey? We were already dominant, and the Liverpool team of the late eighties would have fought Milan several times over for the European title.
Incidentally, evey year the official Liverpool website acknowledges Heysel, as do all the fan sites. This predates any “official” apology. And most of the Juve fans at Anfield for this apology clapped. It was a few rows at the front that turned their backs, as is their right.
As a United fan I disagree with Scott.How can he justify the selling of that merchandise and ignore the fact that a Middlesbrough fan in the 80′s,a Palace fan in the 90′s and 4 Barca fans were killed due to the involvement of United fans?Unless he has swallowed a huge cup of hypocrisy it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.His main argument behind selling that shirt is to confront Liverpool’s denial of their role.But he has ended up making a complete fool of himself because he hasn’t taken into account the actions of some United fans who caused the deaths of a Boro,Palace and 4 Barca fans before selling that shirt.I’m quite embarassed that the owner of such a well known blog could show such ignorance.
Scott comes off as a total hypocrite…pathetic
WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE, WE’VE WON IT THREE TIMES, WE’VE WON IT THREE TIMES, WE’VE WON IT THREE TIMES, WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE, WE’VE WON IT THREE TIMES.
MURDERERS MUDERERS MURDERERS MURDERERS
JUSTICE FOR HEYSEL, JUSTICE FOR HEYSEL, JUSTICE FOR HEYSEL
Shut up or i will kill your nan.
Define: Murder, kill intentionally and with premeditation.
RIP Paul Nixion
http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/news/comments/manchester_united_fan_killed_four_people_after_barcelona_beating_in_champio/
Define: Manslaughter, homicide without malice aforethought
RIP 39
And they call Liverpool fans Murderers; they don’t even know their own history
Always been thick Mancs
YOU’VE WON IT THREE TIMES, YOU’VE WON IT THREE TIMES,BUT YOU KILLED PAUL NIXON,SO YOU’VE GOT BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.
MURDERERS MUDERERS MURDERERS MURDERERS
JUSTICE FOR PAUL NIXON, JUSTICE FOR PAUL NIXON’S FAMILY RIP +
Define: Murder, kill intentionally and with premeditation.
RIP Paul Nixon
Manchester United fan killed four people after A barcelona beating in Champions League final
Manchester United fan killed four people with his minibus he rammed into a crowd of fans after barcelona beat is team in Champions League final
Manchester United fan killed four people after A barcelona beating in Champions League final
Manchester United fan killed four people when he Drove his bus into a Nigerian crowd celebrating Barcelona’s victory in the Champion’s League final in Rome
He drove pass the Barcelona fans then after making a U-turn and driving into the crowd of fans cheering Barcelona’s 2-0 win over United on Wednesday night
Police in Nigeria more than 10 other people where injured in the incident
“The man confessed to doing it on purpose,” Abbey. “He now says he doesn’t know why he did it,
RIP Barceloan fans
Define: Manslaughter, homicide without malice aforethought
RIP 39
And they call Liverpool fans Murderers; they don’t even know their own history
Always been thick Mancs
In 1980, a middle aged man and his wife where tragically killed at Ayresome Park whilst watching their beloved Middlesbrough.
United fans in the away end where responsible for charging and rushing the gate separating the home and away fans, which ultimately collapsed, fatally crushing the couple.
You don’t even know your own filthy History.
The rivalry between Liverpool and Man U fans is both embarrassing and pathetic.
So much of it is also meaningless. As a Liverpool supporter, I can tell you it means absolutely nothing to me to be called a “murderer” because I was a child in 1985 and had absolutely nothing to do with Heysel. Am I supposed to feel guilt by association? Because I don’t. What about the Liverpool supporters who, far from causing the disaster, assisted the victims immediately afterwards? Should they feel guilt by association? It begs the question: who are the “murderers” chants supposed to be aimed at when not even those convicted were convicted of murder? It’s like calling Eric Cantona a paedophile for his assault conviction.
This is the nature of the rivalry. The words don’t need to mean anything or make sense, they just need to be malicious and spiteful. And apparently, irresponsible bloggers need to put them on t-shirts and offer them for sale.
The author is correct – we are as bad as each other, the rivalry is unhealthy and nobody comes out of this looking good.
The world of football can sleep soundly knowing that Manchester United fans are now the moral guardians of the sport. Do all the proceeds from these t-shirts go to charity? Which other major football disasters can we see united fans putting their selfless support behind?
This is all rather dull.
I’m sure some United fans, including Scott, genuinely do this out of some bizarre reasoning to ”confront Liverpool and their fans with their actions over a 20 year period”. The vast majority, however, have absolutely no clue regarding why they sing it – they sing it because they have always sung it and it winds up Scousers.
Are Liverpool fans any better? No. Any Liverpool fan who sings a Munich song is a moron – Matt Busby was a lifelong friend of Paisley and, more importantly, a Liverpool club captain. To sing about him negatively is to sing about us negatively.
Even if he weren’t, don’t sing it.
RCM
The thing that’s annoying me is that the t-shirt is factually wrong, what about Paul Nixon the Crystal Palace fan killed by Man Utd fans at the 1995 FA Cup semi final.
I find the chanting from both fans vile. One other thing I’d like to point out is that, as a Liverpool supporter, I and many, many others find and always did find the SoS and absolute joke. Voice of the fans! Supporters union! Sorry, but my grandad, uncle and dad brought me up as a Liverpool fan, I don’t need a group like this to represent me or be my voice. I have my own voice.
Man U fan here–I agree with Ollie, it really is sick and vicious to capitalise on the wrongful deaths of others because you support a different team. The “okay if we do it, bad if they do it” double standard voiced by some on this is childish, and indicative of the tribalism and hypocrisy that taints an otherwise gorgeous sport.
I get where Scott and like-minded others are coming from–they feel that the shirt brings attention to the tragedy and is therefore a good thing–but it’s possible to have good intentions and yet misfire (“I didn’t mean to offend” is always the kneejerk defense of those accused of bigotry, as though their intentions somehow cancel out the actual result of their words/actions on those offended).
I shouldn’t like to be someone who lost a loved one at Heysel or Hillsborough and then see someone parading around with something like this on. And no, Liverpool fans shouldn’t do the same with Munich, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Bad behaviour on either side does not justify more of the same in retaliation.
Even if this shirt is worn by someone who’s completely sympathetic, it’s still making blood money off poor souls whose only fault was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.